Dear Alexander Bard,
If The Individual is a form of entrapment, what does non-entrapment look
like?
/ Lene
On 14-10-2019 18:37, Alexander Bard wrote:
> Dear Alexander Elung
>
> I would strongly argue that the concept of The Individual is basically
> a form of entrapment.
> It is not tied to any freedom whatsoever but rather a form of
> ownership by a structure larger than the tribe.
> This is why the first individuals were slaves in river valley empires.
> Opposed by a narcissistic pharaoh-tyrant.
> Only later when slaves were too expensive or difficult to maintain,
> did the concept of an Individual who chooses his submission appear.
> Basically this is what modernity is.
> In this sense, the Cartesian Individual is simply somebody who submits
> to capital, nation and academia rather than a Christian who submits to
> the aristocracy, the monarchy and most of all the church.
> Later turned into a Kantian autist which is essentially the status of
> Western Individualism ever since. It is by and large the Anglo-Saxon
> state religion.
> Hegel, Nietzsche, Freud and The American Pragmatists of course do
> their best to break this up. But to the vast majority, the submission
> to the welfare-state and consumer society order is too attractive to
> oppose.
> Especially as its current offer is slavery to the system as permanent
> infantilization.
>
> Best intentions
> Alexander Bard
>
> Den mån 14 okt. 2019 kl 14:33 skrev Alexander Elung
> <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>:
>
> Dear Bard
>
> Yes I agree that “the individual” is most likely mainly primarily
> a legalistic construction. But I would also argue that
> jurisprudence is actually a very broad phenomenon in that respect,
> which covers many aspects of existence and interaction. As Gregg
> also argued, the individual is also an important construction in
> personality psychology.
> I’m not sure I see the direct collection with individualism to
> slavery as I would argue the act of slavery is actually the act
> removing a persons status as an individual – but the concept of
> “rights” is directly depending on being able to distinguish the
> individual from the rest of the tribe.
> best
>
> Elung
>
> *Fra: *Alexander Bard <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> *Sendt: *Monday, October 14, 2019 14:00
> *Til: *[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> *Emne: *Re: Basic interactions.
>
> Dear Alexander Elung
>
> Agreed. In addition, I firmly believe that "The Individual" was
> constructed for very straight forward legal purposes.
>
> So that you can push out, lock up, abjectify and in general
> terrify a body with a mind by "individualizing it". For example is
> slavery impossible without "individuation" first.
>
> Rites of passage are prior to that historically and instead
> respond with a much more humane "submission to tribal interests".
> Which comes with a responsibility toward archetype that
> contemporary society is lacking. But then such societies do not
> have slavery since slavery only arrives with large-scale farming
> and imperialism. And following slavery, individuation and its
> power opposite, the narcissism of the tyrant.
>
> Therefore I use the term "dividual" which then correctly can also
> be applied on larger scales (clan, tribe, nation etc). It's just
> how humans function.
>
> Where I have no desire to participate in the deceitful "game of
> individuation". I have no interest in being or supporting any
> slave owner.
>
> Cheerio
>
> Alexander Bard
>
> Den mån 14 okt. 2019 kl 13:12 skrev Alexander Elung
> <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>:
>
> I completely agree that the individual is very dividable. When
> we explore the psyche, we observe how the “ego” actually
> controls very little compared to the strings being pulled by a
> plethora of subconscious archetypes all with their own
> agendas. I also think the entire tribe exists in the psyche as
> symbolic representations, we then use to project our
> “world-image” - so in a very real sense we are always divided
> inviduals.
>
> However there is still something about the “individual” which
> is non-dividable as a unit, as the “house/body” of the
> psyche. There are so many uses for that word which cannot
> just be replaced by dividual, that I think it would be a
> mistake to let it go entirely.
> best
>
> Elung
>
> *Fra:*tree of knowledge system discussion
> <[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> på vegne af Alexander
> Bard <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> *Sendt:* Monday, October 14, 2019 12:54:32 PM
> *Til:* [log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]><[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> *Emne:* Re: Basic interactions.
>
> We agree.
>
> My suggestion is therefore that our models also reflect our
> convictions. As a counter-balance to prevalent public and
> academic opinion.
>
> Why even use the term "individuate" and not just say
> "dividuate" into "dividuals"? "Individual" means
> "undividable", so why even use the term when it is blatantly
> incorrect? Why not piss of the Cartesians instead?
>
> A great idea from Deleuze & Guattari that I have practised ove
> the past 30 years, for example by developing schizoanalysis as
> a highly successful analysis treatment.
>
> Why be only one when you can be many? Many people who share
> the same house/body?
>
> Cheerio
>
> Alexander
>
> Den mån 14 okt. 2019 kl 12:47 skrev Henriques, Gregg -
> henriqgx <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>:
>
> My view is that the prototype/ideal US/American identity
> is excessively focused on the individual, one that makes
> that makes decisions, independent of emotions and
> relations. In fact, as attachment theory makes clear we
> are born in relation. We then individuate from our
> mothers, as Lene points out.
>
>
> Best,
>
> G
>
> *From:* tree of knowledge system discussion
> <[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> *On Behalf Of
> *Lene Rachel Andersen - Nordic Bildung / Fremvirke
> *Sent:* Monday, October 14, 2019 6:00 AM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> *Subject:* Re: Basic interactions.
>
> I think that anybody who is the parent of a toddler would
> have plenty of data, particularly during visits to super
> markets as they pass by the candy section (though that is
> not an experience widely shared by indigenous
> hunter-gatherers, of course...)
>
> / Lene
>
> On 14-10-2019 11:40, Alexander Bard wrote:
>
> When do modern Western toddlers separate their sense
> of self from their mothers?
>
> Do you have any studies to refer to and how were they
> conducted?
>
> Psychoanalysis has long put the self-sense-making at
> the so called mirror stage, and as negation of mother.
> "Something exists that is not mother".
>
> Whether that really occurs at any sort of mirror or is
> just another name for the phallic intrusion is a hotly
> debated topic.
>
> Obviously hard to solve since the subconscious
> self-sense-making is way deeper and therefore much
> earlier than any conscious self-sensing.
>
> Phallic intrusion called so since phallus represents
> that which mother is not in the outside world. Nota bene.
>
> Best
>
> Alexander
>
> Den mån 14 okt. 2019 kl 11:36 skrev Lene Rachel
> Andersen - Nordic Bildung / Fremvirke
> <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>:
>
> Dear men of so many (shared) words,
>
> Is it only modern Western toddlers who separate
> their sense of self from their mother (and others)?
>
> Best,
>
> Lene
>
> On 14-10-2019 11:21, Alexander Bard wrote:
>
> Dear Gregg
>
> Point taken. And America is also Pragmatism,
> both Peirce and Whitehead are firmly rooted in
> community and intersubjectivity (inherited
> from Hegel).
>
> America would do really well with a huge
> Pragmatist revival as opposed to today's
> one-fight-against-everybody vulgar
> Cartesianism. Isn't that what both you and Zak
> Stein do already?
>
> My opposition is therefore against your ORDER
> of things with "Individual" first. Why even
> start with The Individual? Is that merely
> because Psychologists's sales-pitches always
> start as self-help manuals? Or why else?
>
> As Wittgenstein says, we are 100% social,
> every word we use is borrowed from somebody
> else. Priority must be given to "colaboration"
> over "competition" because it is way more
> correct for humans.
>
> Best
>
> Alexander
>
> Den sön 13 okt. 2019 kl 14:18 skrev Henriques,
> Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>:
>
> Bard,
>
> There is much to be said for
> understanding the human unit as the Dunbar
> “socioont” and we in the US, with our
> history of embracing hyper-individualistic
> objectivist philosophies like that of Ayn
> Rand need to see that we are defined by
> intersubjective dialogue and the movement
> of the herd in a way that Rand foolishly
> denies.
>
> However, I think we can go too far in
> our rejection of the individual. I prefer
> the Bronfenbrenner socio-ecological lens
> of concentric circles, from the individual
> to family to the clan/tribe/community to
> the nation to the globe.
>
> But the (in)dividual or subjective agent
> is a fundamental unit. Personality
> psychology lives in relation to social psych.
>
>
> G
>
> *From:* tree of knowledge system
> discussion <[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> *On Behalf Of *Alexander Bard
> *Sent:* Sunday, October 13, 2019 8:09 AM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> *Subject:* Re: Basic interactions.
>
> Dear Waldemar
>
> Acually no.
>
> The "I" primacy is a typically European
> modernist starting point and not at all
> universal.
>
> Still the predominant starting point
> among within American and European middle
> class discourse.
>
> But again, not at all universal and not
> even historically relevant outside of the
> Cartesian-Kantian paradigm that still
> dominates Western academia but which the
> Internet Revolution is about to explode.
>
> You see, the rest of the world starts with
> a tribal we. Usually around the Dubar
> number of 157. Nothing is less than 157.
>
> So much for "higher perspectives". It
> rather seems it takes an awful lot of
> effort for western middle class people to
> arrive where the rest of humanity starts from.
>
> Wilber is a Cartesian. I would much prefer
> if we could leave that religious
> conviction behind or at least not pretend
> it is a universally valid norm.
>
> And what does behaviporism prove to us if
> not that we behave as swarms and/or flocks
> 99,9% of the time? No "individuals" at all
> in action. But swarms and flocks that at
> most contain dividuals.
>
> Tthe future belongs to social psychology
> (like Peterson and Vervaeke) and not
> individual psychology at all. We are all
> already social and nothing but social.
>
> Big love
>
> Alexander
>
> Den lör 12 okt. 2019 kl 05:46 skrev
> Waldemar A Schmidt, PhD, MD
> <[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>:
>
> Alexander (Bard):
>
> I am reading your works very carefully.
> And I value the insights they invoke
> within me.
> Slowly, to be sure, I am trained in
> medicine and science, not philosophy.
> But there are some truths that apply
> to Puerto Rican mothers of 5, as well
> as grandfathers of 5, such as myself:
>
> There is an “I”.
> There is a relationship of “I”
> with “I” within “I.”
> There is an I-Thou relationship.
> There is an I-It relationship.
>
> And we all struggle to keep a balance
> within those.
> That balance requires looking at
> things such as paradigms.
> It won’t put food on the table.
> But, it might help to do so with elan.
>
> Nonetheless, keep poking, brother!
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Waldemar
>
>
>
> Waldemar A Schmidt, PhD, MD
> (Perseveret et Percipiunt)
> Sent from my iPad
>
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