I wanted to write in quickly and say that I am greatly appreciative of this
current thread and am looking forward to reading Nancy's response to
Waldemar's.

-Chance



On Sun, Nov 18, 2018 at 11:47 AM Nancy Link <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Waldemar, Martin, Mark and Gregg,
>
> Waldemar, Thank your bring us back to the question of what are we really
> talking about. It keeps us from talking past each other.
>
> I would like to explain what I mean by science, consciousness and mental
> processes and then contrast my understanding with the comments made by
> others.
>
> *Science* for me is that kind of knowledge produced using the scientific
> method. It relies heavily on deduction.
>
> *Consciousness* for me is William James’s description of consciousness in *The
> Principles of Psychology.* Consciousness is a flowing thing. It moves
> seamlessly from one thought to another or to a feeling and then back to a
> thought. It is always moving.  The scientific method is ill suited to make
> inroads into the problem of understanding this kind of material.   On the
> other hand, the clinical method is much better suited to gathering
> information on consciousness because consciousness is what psychotherapists
> work with. They listen to the conscious material that their patients
> produce and wait for patterns to reoccur.  A great deal of clinical thought
> is based on the detection of repeating patterns. For example, transference
> requires the detection of a repeating pattern, one having occurred in a
> childhood relationship; the other in an adulthood relationship. Disease
> classification also depends upon the detection of repeating patterns.
>
> I believe that an integrated science of psychology will come into being
> when the findings about human functioning deriving  from both methods are
> accounted for within a single explanatory framework.
>
> For me, consciousness, the mind and *mental processes*  are all
> interchangeable.  In making these things interchangeable, I am not ignoring
> Freud’s contribution to the understanding of the unconsciousness or the
> preconscious mind.
>
> Briefly, in my model, I see the mind as having evolved through 4 periods
> during the course of evolution and these stages are reiterated
> child development.
> 1) The sensorimotor mind (found in babies, ages 4 months to 18 months)
> Using this mind, babies learn to organize their behaviour in the pursuit of
> goals. This mind evolved during the period from the stem mammals to the Old
> world monkeys
> 2) The dimensional mind (found in toddlers and preschoolers !8 months to
> five years) Using this mind, children learn how to use alliances to attain
> power. This mind evolved during the period beginning with the apes and
> ending with early grade hominins.
> 3) The narrative mind (school age children) Using this mind, child learn
> how to tell stories, but more importantly they carry around images of whole
> people inside their heads. This mind evolved during the tenure of the
> mid-grade hominins.
> 4) The formal abstract mind (adolescence, starting at 11 years.) This mind
> is characterized by the ability to use abstract concepts to organize
> thinking about tangible things. This mind evolved with the late-grade
> hominins, including humans.
>
> The first two minds are organized through affect; the second two minds are
> organized through language.   We use each one of these minds as we go about
> our daily activities. The latter two minds, the ones organized by language,
> are more accessible to conscious awareness than the minds organized through
> affect.
>
> Waldemar —  For me, Freud’s preconscious and unconscious  are more likely
> to operate when we are using the first two minds.  Sometimes during
> childhood we learn to avoid paying attention to certain affects as a means
> of controlling our own behaviour. This is my way of accounting for the
> phenomenon of defences.
>
> Martin —  Your bringing up the cognitive abilities of fish and birds makes
> me think of an important difference  between my thinking and the thinking
> of almost every other psychologist that I know.  I believe that the ability
> to learn evolved within lineages. If we want to understand how the mind
> of *Homo sapiens* evolved, we should pay attention to the learning
> abilities that evolved within our lineage. For me that means forgetting
> fish which split from our lineage about 4 million years ago and forgetting
>  birds, because they are not on our lineage. They evolved  from the
> reptiles.
>
> I find math daunting at the best of times. What I can say is that as you
> were working out your math problem, you were using your formal abstract
> mind. (Except for the part where you went to sleep and woke up with
> an insight.) Counting systems are an abstraction which overarches tangible
> things.
>
> Although I think that the learning abilities of fish are impressive, I do
> not believe that they are capable of abstract thought, as I define it.
> Words like symbolic thought and abstract thought need careful attention to
> definition.
>
> Mark — As you so eloquently put it, there needs to be something new added
> to what we are doing now to resolve the problem of psychology. The question
> is what? We all draw upon our backgrounds to try to answer that question.
> My background is clinical psychology.
>
> Gregg — I see most academics, including you, as overusing your formal
> abstract mind at the expense of the other minds. (Certainly all the reinforcements
> delivered in the university push in that direction.) You are deeply
> intuitive and your theory is essentially correct, but it is presented in
> conceptual boxes. For me, I have trouble connecting the boxes to a
> narrative structure. For example, in the Architecture of the Human Mind
> diagram, I notice that you have added concepts like working memory,
> procedural memory, semantic memory,  episodic memory and long term memory.
> I agree that these concepts are critical to understanding the human mind,
> but how do they connect to other concepts? I am working on a narrative
> structure that tries to connect least some of these elements to others.
> For example, I am asking questions like: What role does working memory
> play in the ability to learn? When does it first appear in child
> development and when did it first appear in evolution? What function did it
> serve, when it first appeared in evolution? To me, it seems like answers to
> questions such as these are necessary to build a coherent narrative
> structure.
>
> For me, mental processes are anything that occurs inside the head:
> thoughts, sensations, perceptions, affective feelings, all subjective
> experience.  It does not matter whether these experiences are attached
> to behaviour or not. I would be interested in understanding your
> distinction between consciousness and mental processes.
>
> With warm regards to all,
>
> Nancy
>
> From: tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]>
> on behalf of Waldemar Schmidt <[log in to unmask]>
> Reply-To: tree of knowledge system discussion <
> [log in to unmask]>
> Date: Friday, November 16, 2018 at 4:20 PM
> To: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: blog on talking as a behavior or mental process
>
> Dear Friends:
>
> What fascinating ideas about mental processes, mind, consciousness, and
> science.  No idling grey matter on this list serve!
>
> But some of us, such as myself, are a little bit slower and need some
> definitions.  Sorry, that’s my reductionist training exerting itself.
> Please understand that the following comments deal with methods and means
> and not with person or persons.
>
> For instance, how is “science” being used?  Wiktionary defines “science”
> as:
>
> *science*
>
> 1.    A particular discipline or branch of learning, especially one
> dealing with measurable or systematic principles rather than intuition or
> natural ability. [from 14th
>
> 2.    Specifically the natural sciences
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_natural-5Fscience&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=-cbYA2VU5t-3f-fdo-wtYkjJPY7e0zCK12DtMwoeFYA&e=>
> .
>
> 3.     Knowledge
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_knowledge&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=coFevuvkx9ynHz2TeR37-tHYN-aS_-nSfaJkC4I1tOc&e=> gained
> through study
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_study&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=dCElDACihsn-ziUhviIyvvGE_0vImUsOQfWjqe2EJCQ&e=>
>  or practice
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_practice&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=YseRT2bPwLNOfLTmnPkT76ZKrI-2YpuVuw5rZ9GJ87g&e=>;
> mastery of a particular discipline or area. [from 14th c
>
> 4.    The fact of knowing something; knowledge
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_knowledge&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=coFevuvkx9ynHz2TeR37-tHYN-aS_-nSfaJkC4I1tOc&e=> or
> understanding of a truth. [from 14th c
>
> 5.    The collective discipline of study or learning acquired through the scientific
> method
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_scientific-5Fmethod&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=xd0rFmae1PGmS5A7VnXTXxNrH2DiU1wkS-P4hFJxKt8&e=>;
> the sum of knowledge gained from such methods and discipline. [from 18th c
>
> 6.    Knowledge derived from scientific disciplines, scientific method,
> or any systematic effort.
>
> 7.    The scientific community.
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_science&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=J9OALGJgRK-h4bBw-14f2pLCwkBxzFzIgeSaDK5ByiQ&s=KHlSHjv9f9-0e61QaOaqzYSNSoBSjKSNCwsmVMsS2V8&e=
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_science&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=IpmE1HgW6w1hw-06vvj96u1IYWhv91kiBYDAK8xQiSM&e=>
>
>
> How is it being used in this discussion?  This is important in terms of
> the Wittgensteinian word game, n’est pas?  My conception of “science” is
> that principally it is a discipline, a method, a way of thinking, a
> filtration means for dealing with disparate representations of reality
> which tends towards finding and exploiting reproducible representations.  That
> is, centered around definition #1 above.  But, more often than not, the
> word “science” is used variably to mean, as it may be useful to a
> particular contention with which it is associated, any or all of the other
> definitions, just in case any one or more of them may affirm the contention
> being made.
>
> OK, in case that seems nit picking – wait, there’s more – as the TV
> hucksters proclaim.
>
> How are the words “mental processes,” “mind,” and “consciousness” being
> used in this discussion?  Again, I’ll refer to Wiktionary, since that is
> easily accessible by all.
>
> *mental*
>
> 1.    Of or relating to the mind
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_mind&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=PoGUxNpZJbGZ-MVP1YIEdZOe1qcqzvCDpe0PrPtBedI&e=> or
> an intellectual
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_intellect&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=bYKdSMH1aOkF_uCOZuJqWu5QwxOYXLxU8lkWjzN2lxc&e=>
>  process.
>
> 2.    Insane
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_insane&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=w-rL22JHMDrosrPvUfy_OKkWu8Y6N1__0Z-wBoG62Ek&e=>
> , mad
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_mad&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=F339WLuifNNXnAp2YjDVsbdI0iGGba4Eijl2eXMU66M&e=>
> , crazy
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_crazy&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=xXXthS8K4trxkP8nN6WWry8WtNPP0GuyZkho84SP7g4&e=>
> .
>
> 3.    Enjoyable
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_enjoyable&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=56lUFKRHJRxuPv9iIPfOBu4xR2YXkyB6sOETWSvOY24&e=>
>  or fun
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_fun&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=6pTCsnTso0nlbSz1gP3UUCCtQP7oBNOx5bFMjUpYbtE&e=>,
> especially in a frenetic way.
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_mental&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=J9OALGJgRK-h4bBw-14f2pLCwkBxzFzIgeSaDK5ByiQ&s=umFvn9zGXAmYKVhhM8WnNsm1ynhUWAXHarBSTWGzIHM&e=
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_mental&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=iqHOvOiJdR_VJUtLLytfRJ5BcbdGMg0KX5zrOe7LO3k&e=>
>
>
>
> *mind*
>
> 1.    The ability for rational
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_rational&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=ZPzsIsx3m8-7rXNOlVXH91ekDFzgF6rIkZ9sgv-SgyM&e=>
>  thought
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_thought&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=bpvxDKVGm-NW6yvgBp08Mrx3_dOPa3aVUR8H_1eJo4s&e=>
> .
>
> 2.    The ability
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_ability&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=5uOhyMO8RdHEqcw7Osa3II3v7zvCZzMe8m5Vt5BM0t0&e=> to
> be aware
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_aware&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=sDFROvqrNWkh6iscOIijngg-hXmHCYPPrJwIhIGCy4s&e=> of
> things.
>
> 3.    The ability to remember things.
>
> 4.    The ability to focus the thoughts.
>
> 5.    Somebody that embodies certain mental qualities.
>
> 6.    Judgment, opinion, or view.
>
> 7.    Desire, inclination, or intention.
>
> 8.    A healthy mental state.
>
> 9.    The non-
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_non-2D&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=pHi0Yo0ewjQwnJKkN8yCcfoYCHXzgSatMycf921_Mcc&e=>
> material
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_material&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=oVH_9HPqzEhzgLtBiU5NzPLNpWlU_KbA8Wjd3y_8kUI&e=>
>  substance
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_substance&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=HQkgE-nG29vmawdSdDDawNbSNtqeXHV4W0nvZ7qYGPQ&e=> or
> set of processes
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_process&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=oo9NDaIrDRA66AGcbV9pyx5Iu9AvcRQSscm1eD54jVY&e=> in
> which consciousness
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_consciousness&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=N5NQtfKssGCncmMohYMYoh4eLZiYLKVac8Xv_judpuE&e=>
> , perception
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_perception&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=8eWPtT49qOoUCY5KtueMUICo9o5kA1AAiiTcBh73xKE&e=>
> , affectivity
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_affectivity&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=de5v6fA2Z8-UlbndUhlNKsyhW8julFQ32j-7q2_l55o&e=>
> , judgement
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_judgement&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=nkBcPGGCHgahkQUH_L0IVFSmM4RBo84jQ8_c7xAyLYA&e=>
> , thinking
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_thinking&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=QdBT7r4EuwqqgdCSn4nc9ZhoM6rDwCvfkr9rgE3LaV0&e=>,
> and will
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_will&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=Z4IVrlCWPV6JKiLCV-9_EkrkMEIyoO10PWhBSH2ER0k&e=> are
> based.
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_mind&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=J9OALGJgRK-h4bBw-14f2pLCwkBxzFzIgeSaDK5ByiQ&s=qxYmbibQjJe2XIEXUWSjFyPFGBGg6MCBfE6xOGM3294&e=
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_mind&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=PoGUxNpZJbGZ-MVP1YIEdZOe1qcqzvCDpe0PrPtBedI&e=>
>
>
>
> *conscious*
>
> 1.    Alert
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_alert&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=MYumFMIaAdY_gqkKoeY9Um_YSkfq0Yt5PxMMHwGbzdM&e=>
> , awake
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_awake&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=57ELSfPbxtID1-hlgR09tgTZnRCkDN9AC7gMmKaew4g&e=>;
> with one's mental
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_mental&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=iqHOvOiJdR_VJUtLLytfRJ5BcbdGMg0KX5zrOe7LO3k&e=>
>  faculties
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_faculty&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=12T0UQqJ0qw6RqPwvNL5m9z8p9IRn66uJW4a-Ooxw80&e=>
>  active.
>
> 2.    Aware
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_aware&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=sDFROvqrNWkh6iscOIijngg-hXmHCYPPrJwIhIGCy4s&e=> of
> one's own existence; aware
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_aware&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=sDFROvqrNWkh6iscOIijngg-hXmHCYPPrJwIhIGCy4s&e=> of
> one's own awareness
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_awareness&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=KMF2BYFWGJg_fOYGIO4QvKmRUIfOwaDKlyA6hUzNZM8&e=>
> .
>
> 3.    Aware
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_aware&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=sDFROvqrNWkh6iscOIijngg-hXmHCYPPrJwIhIGCy4s&e=>
>  of, sensitive
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_sensitive&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=D19qfv16zyQXtzQs1g4J1zfFAvHWxrd2KHqXYKytIcY&e=> to;
> observing and noticing, or being strongly interested in or concerned about.
>
> 4.    Deliberate
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_deliberate&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=pBBA99rXxcnF9zE7xOog8mCsx10GOCGmgDU_BArcnww&e=>
> , intentional
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_intentional&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=1Ourwcl47YAqCHQJafvYX5gzSvM61tQaen-w2Q-9q10&e=>,
> done with awareness
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_awareness&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=KMF2BYFWGJg_fOYGIO4QvKmRUIfOwaDKlyA6hUzNZM8&e=> of
> what one is doing.
>
> 5.    Known
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_known&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=QvoQ3zsf733nRHgAP2YGMOamikEXaV0zS2Oip6ZrCDc&e=>
>  or felt
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_felt&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=eyd6RpjI5N5uubDYl4p-8XMEQFOCbFSwMb9-wfAcz0s&e=> personally,
> internally by a person.
>
> 6.    Self-conscious
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_self-2Dconscious&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=JjHK3yuqMzxSBSxg4B7Xkg0DhmR0Lm2Ecy6fqQFLQ8w&e=>
> .
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_conscious&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=J9OALGJgRK-h4bBw-14f2pLCwkBxzFzIgeSaDK5ByiQ&s=U9XZEe9M8Yw6UK0yQSkSnoX9gwql1lfueiINkuXhr3A&e=
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_conscious&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=5lnKZ_QChjktNnwS6jAPx3F3-tmimSGuL-8LFUx_ygA&e=>
>
>
> Clearly, “mental” as used in this discussion surely means the application
> of definition #1 above.  As such, I take it to be a sophisticated way to
> state that “something is going on in the "mind.”  Is there a more
> specific way in which this word is being used in this discussion?
>
> “Mind,” on the other hand, appears to allude to a variety of psychological
> functions, as well as affective, cognitive, and conative states.  This wide
> usage and reference leaves the word’s meaning too vague in meaningful
> discussion. [Sorry, my reductionist opinion, to my mind (pun intended).]
>
> And, “consciousness” – how may we apprehend its use?  The definitions
> above seem uniformly confined to understanding this state in a singular way
> – as does “mind, by the way.  That is, implicit is the perception of
> reference to the conscious state – as opposed to either the pre-conscious
> or the unconscious state.
>
> Which leads me to suggest the following:
>
> PastedGraphic-3.tiff
>
>                                         (Apologies, as needed, to Gregg’s
> more instructive Human Mind Diagrams)
>
>
> In this representation, the “mind” includes all three levels of activity –
> the conscious, the pre-conscious, and the unconscious, as well as the
> sympathetic nervous system, the endocrine system, and the body in general.
> But, more commonly, when we refer to the “mind” we imply CNS mental
> activity of which we are consciously aware.  Whereas, in terms of
> consciousness we are only aware of the “conscious mind” component and
> partially/intermittently aware of the “pre-conscious” component while, by
> definition, being unaware of the “unconscious mind” component and processes
> therein.  On the other hand, “mental processes” occur in the “mind” at all
> levels, while “consciousness” refers predominantly to our awareness of
> mental processes at the “conscious mind” level.  With extended effort,
> consciousness is able to access some of the mental processes at the
> “preconscious mind” level.  With greater effort, and some professional
> help, we might access some of the mental processes at the “unconscious
> mind” level.
>
> An example is provided by Martin’s email about his mathematics
> deliberations.  As he writes, it was when he awoke that he experienced
> further insight to his maths problem – after consideration of Gregg and
> Linda’s comments.  This suggests (to me the reductionist) that his
> non-consciousness “unconscious mind” mental processes were at work
> assisting his consciouness “conscious mind” to evolve a resolution.
>
> Sometimes it seems to me that humanities-type writing includes dependence
> upon unstated assumptions and an unclearly defined use of words.  It might
> be prudent to consider such as to do so may not be in the best interests of
> The TOK Society’s efforts.
>
> Just in case Wittgenstein is right!
> Best regards,
>
> Waldemar
>
> *Waldemar A Schmidt, PhD, MD*
> (Perseveret et Percipiunt)
> 503.631.8044
>
> *Strive not to be a success, but rather to be of value. (A Einstein)*
>
> On Nov 16, 2018, at 6:49 AM, Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> Thanks, Nancy.
>
> To me, this is a great topic for our list. I would be curious to hear your
> thoughts on how you define/characterize mental processes and consciousness.
>
> I encourage others to chime in also.
>
> I am in the thick of my next book, The Problem of Psychology and Its
> Solution. It argues directly that modern empirical/textbook psychology is
> anchored to methodological behaviorism, where behavior is what we measure
> and mind is the cause or force or whatever that is inferred. Via the UTUA
> language game, I am delineating a new way to define these concepts. I will
> say here that the three concepts are very different in the UTUA system.
> Mental processes are not synonymous with consciousness in my language game.
> Indeed, I see it as crucial that the two are separated.
>
> Warm regards,
> Gregg
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* tree of knowledge system discussion <
> [log in to unmask]> *On Behalf Of *Nancy Link
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 15, 2018 3:34 PM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* Re: blog on talking as a behavior or mental process
>
> Hi Gregg,
>
> I agree completely with what you have said in this blog.
>
> I think that the study of mental processes (consciousness) continues to be
> seriously disadvantaged because the way that psychology was initially set
> up.
>
> To the extent that it is seriously studied, it is studied by the
> psychotherapists who work with the material of consciousness.
>
> Nancy
>
> *From: *tree of knowledge system discussion <
> [log in to unmask]> on behalf of Gregg Henriques <
> [log in to unmask]>
> *Reply-To: *tree of knowledge system discussion <
> [log in to unmask]>
> *Date: *Thursday, November 15, 2018 at 10:43 AM
> *To: *"[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
> *Subject: *blog on talking as a behavior or mental process
>
> Hi List,
>   Hope this finds everyone well. I had an exchange yesterday with Steve
> Quackenbush on the deep problems with modern empirical psychology, and it
> prompted the following short blog:
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.psychologytoday.com_us_blog_theory-2Dknowledge_201811_is-2Dtalking-2Dbehavior-2Dor-2Dmental-2Dprocess&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=J9OALGJgRK-h4bBw-14f2pLCwkBxzFzIgeSaDK5ByiQ&s=2AEJLFqE-cFSGfv9v0I4wxTSC8xh1muPIWLqRwrvHxc&e=
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.psychologytoday.com_us_blog_theory-2Dknowledge_201811_is-2Dtalking-2Dbehavior-2Dor-2Dmental-2Dprocess&d=DwMFAg&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=OniJrklPJVN62FIay4fbiT4SnefsFPZ6AWAHxi0gG_8&s=Eg23DNnrxK_LcrlLt3OuNNNgFwr_sWrbxVSSQw2KNjg&e=>
>
> Best,
> Gregg
> ############################
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